Transcript
Welcome back to Connecting the Dots, the podcast where we navigate the challenges of modern marketing, but without fear. Nowadays, every CMO I talk to is seeing their organic traffic declining by the minute. It's a lot of fear out there. It's the search apocalypse, but it doesn't have to be. If you look at the data, they might tell you a more positive story. At Proceedes, we run an original data study on the effect of AI overviews on traffic, and the results are gamechanging. Where your traffic might be decreasing, the value is just moving. So today I'm joined by Christina Burgle, our SEO director here at PES to talk about what it means for you and your business. >> Well, Christina, it's so nice to have you here. >> Nice to be here. >> Um, you are the SEO director here, but how long have you been in SEO? >> Let's see. So, I've been working with SEO for the last 14 years now. >> Okay. >> Um, so yeah, a lot of things have happened in that space. Yeah, I bet. >> But actually more things have probably happened in the last year than in those previous 13 years to be honest. >> Yeah. Uh would you say that AI is the most revolutionary thing that happened in SEO? >> 100%. Yes, it's definitely the most revolutionary thing that's happened. Obviously, we've had loads of algorithm shifts throughout the years and all sorts of fun stuff happening, but this is the most the biggest change we've seen for sure, >> which makes it really exciting. Maybe a little bit scary for some. Right. Definitely. Definitely. >> Well, you're a CMO, right? So, you're one of the people who are kind of wondering >> petrified by all this. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. And uh I think it's uh it's getting of course really exciting. But as anything new is also gets very scary and I think marketeers we are in a position where we want to do everything right. We want to understand what's that we have to do next. But it's not always so easy. And there's always a lot of new things and news to navigate. And I feel like in the past year or so with um AI and LLMs and AI overviews, marketers are just panicking. And do you think that panic is justified? Um I totally get why you would panic if you are looking at maybe just your organic traffic, a metric that you've been, you know, tracking for many years and all of a sudden you see this massive drop perhaps, especially for some industries. Um, yeah, the drop in click-through rate. There's a the most recent study shows a I think it's 58% decrease in in click-through rates like across the board. >> Um, and that's obviously going to make you feel a bit panicked um as a natural reaction. But I would say rather than see it as a a risk or you know something scary, we need to flip the script a little bit and see is look at this and go what is happening, why is this happening and how can we do to pivot to make this maybe an opportunity even. >> Yeah. Makes sense. And I think what is scaring what what is scaring marketeers is not just AI per se but is the fact that AI is impacting the platform that we have been optimized for in the past you know 10 years or you know even longer than that and uh we had worked your team has worked on a report on the effect of AI overviews on traffic and you know the opportunities uh that sit in AI overviews. Can you tell us a little bit about the study and what we found out? Well, the study that we've done, we looked at four different verticals. So, B2B, e-commerce, uh, healthcare and and banking and finance. Um so really what we were trying to find out is that what is happening right now with AI overviews how is that affecting these different verticals to really just gain some insights for you know CMOS you're one of them and the likes and and marketers just understand what's happening here and then taking that data away to maybe feed their own strategies of what they need to do right now to realign to this new AI search landscape that we found ourselves in. Um so what we did is that we took um keywords from across brands that we work with kind large brands and mediumsiz brands as well um to get uh a set of data for keywords and their search volumes and their corresponding cost per click and then based on that we calculated what we call the share value and that's just really the volume of these keywords times their cost per click and what we use this for is then to see what percentages are these keywords showing up in AI overviews And what percentage are brands showing up in these AI overviews? And that gives us an indication of what is the value of being seen at this very top of the page real estate. And why we use cost per click is really because if you seen there, it's the corresponding value of being seen in an ad at the top of the page. So that just is a metric to just give us an indication of what the opportunity is for these different verticals within AI overviews right now and what you need to do to be seen in them. So brands are seeing this decline in organic traffic but really it's not that the traffic is just disappearing. The value of that traffic is just being redirected into AI overviews and within the report we talked about this uh you guys talk about this concept of value intercept and how AI can be a value intercept. Can you explain that concept a little bit more and what does it mean? Well, so with this report that we've done, we set out to kind of really get to the bottom of why why is this happening or what is happening rather within organic search. We know that AI overviews are there now. How often are they there? Obviously varies a little bit depending on keywords and and industries. Um but what we really wanted to figure out was uh what's creating you know the lack of or the reduced rather inorganic traffic. Um, and is this just clicks disappearing? Are we losing organic visibility? What's happening? And obviously, as we know, AI overviews is is there answering questions that our potential customers are asking. And they getting this premium real estate on top of the page, right, where maybe an ad would have been otherwise. And if AI overviews is then using your brand's voice, your brand's data or information to inform that user, then there's some value there, right? That user might not actually click through to your website. So, you're losing the click, but the value of being one of the cited brands in an AI overview the same value as if you would have been at top of that page for an ad. Yeah, exactly. And in the in the report we talk about uh this replacement cost. So the fact that in the in AI overviews there's over $12 million in monthly searches uh across four verticals that um we have decided to analyze and that is what we call like the replacement cost right. So what is that replacing actually you said it a little bit before like is it ads is is is that what is replacing? >> Yes. So we we kind of used a metric that we called the shareer value. And what that basically means is that is the keywords and their volume times their cost per click. Um and then we're looking at what would basically that keyword of cost in in an ad. Uh but now it's been intercepted by AI overviews. So the value of that same keyword if you're showing up in AI overviews, that's the replacement cost. So you might have spent $40 on like best home loans in an ad, but then instead if you're showing up in AI overviews for that same keyword and the AI overview, the LLM are using your data to answer that question right there, then you've intercepted that customer's intent in AI overview. >> And I guess you could say that then you get that coverage, that space for free. Uh but we know for free doesn't exist in marketing, right? So I guess that's also one of the objections that CMOs have is is this going to cost us a lot of money, a lot of effort. >> Does it really make sense to do it now? How expensive it is? Because of course optimizing for LLMs can be expensive in term of time and effort. >> Absolutely. But like you say, nothing is ever free. Um but I'd say obviously my background is in SEO, so I say reliance on paid traffic is dangerous. And even more so now there's this massive opportunity for brands to really take that real estate with an AIO reviews. That value is there and up for grabs. But of course, yeah, it's not free to optimize or pay for someone to do your SEO and optimize your visibility or optimizing, you know, for visibility within AI overviews as well demands quite a lot of work. I mean here at proise we're adapting our SEO strategies to involve AO and obviously optimizing for LLMs can be a little bit different than optimizing for the way we used to do for algorithms as the new landscape we're in right now compared to the old algorithms they were really based on kind of static websites ranking websites off the information that was on there at that given moment in time when you crawl the site. Whereas LLMs are taking information in real time from across the web, not just your website. What everyone is saying about you across all the different touch points online, that is what the LLM base, what they know about your brand. Um, so that's where the difference is and optimizing for that takes a real effort and it's not free. It demands you as an SEO or your SEO team or agency to work together with brands, social, content, tech, even everyone needs to come together and really think about how can we create brand visibility across the web to gain uh that visibility in AI. >> Yeah, makes sense. I often think that obviously there's a lot of effort and work that would go into optimizing for AI, but at the same time it is also a lot of work that took to optimize for search in general. So maybe that's more like a wakeup call for companies that never even thought about SEO in the first place and now you can't not do it anymore. You have to because that's the way the industry is evolving in a way. >> Absolutely. And um we looked um at four different industries in the report. So we have banking, we have ecom, B2B and healthcare. And if we start from ecom, I thought was really really interesting that as a share of value, we only have 2.3% meaning that only 2.3% of searches are actually triggering an AI response. And I thought that's very strange because ecom is a massive business uh for Google, but in general it is a massive industry. How is that only such a small percentage of searches are actually driving AI responses? What's Google doing? Maybe this is the calm before the storm, right? Um well, Google is being a little bit cautious here, right? Maybe to protect ad revenue for e-commerce, but I think Google has a whole different plan for the ecom industry as a whole. Obviously, we're seeing with roll out of uh the universal commerce protocol making it possible for us to shop aically within Google itself. We have AI overviews that can now expand directly into AI mode with just a click of a button. Uh we can keep on having these discussions with AI and that's where aentic commerce takes hold. This whole um interface is changing. That's where we're going towards this agentic commerce. So right now in ecom um a little bit like I said it's the calm before the storm which basically means that this is this is your opportunity as an ecom brand to start taking that market share start optimizing and preparing yourself for the era of agentic commerce that is really upon us being that brand right now in AI overviews educating your potential customers about your brand is is the forerunner for whatever products that you sell that's where you need to be right now and focusing your energy. Yeah, >> it's not really up for debate. It's going to happen. >> It is happening. >> Yeah, it is happening. So, brands needs to needs to prepare. And I feel like many brands in the ecom space in many industries, but especially in the ecom space might be looking at this number and be like, okay, I'm just we're just going to wait and see. But that could be really risky, right? >> Yeah, I would say so. There's a risk in in waiting. Um other brands might not be thinking like that. Your competitors might go, "Right, let's just run with this. take this opportunity, become the market leader within our niche, you know, do it now. >> Makes sense. And what would you say um would be a good tactic or a good area for ecom brands to start with? The first thing I would start with as an ecom brand right now is optimizing your feed, your free listings. So, optimizing those, make sure you have all the data points in there that you possibly can. Uh that's a great place to start. >> And do you think feed optimization is different now than it was before? I would say so with the era of um you know optimizing towards LLMs you know towards AI then all of a sudden you have this opportunity to add a lot more data within your feeds that can train the LLM of what they know about your products and also what they know about all these little details about why your products are the best and you can take information from across the web of how people are talking about your brand frequently asked questions that your customers might have or reasons why they return your product. All of that data you can feed into how you optimize your feed in terms of all these little features of why they are better than your competitors. You can pop in there to train the LLMs on what they know about your brand and your products. So if we move on to banking and finance, we have seen that 8% of searches are actually triggering an AI overview response. And yeah, that is maybe not so much, but actually that 8% contains 13% of the overall value, which is around $7 million in monthly searches, which is yeah, quite a lot of money, right? How's that possible? How is that Google's maybe cherrypicking certain keywords? I think what we're seeing with that data is like you're saying, AI overviews are kind of well, you have two pots of of questions, right? It's like definitions of maybe financial terms or things like that that people just want an explanation of the very top of the funnel here. And then you have like the more money terms like you know best mortgage rates or high yield savings accounts or when people are a lot more than the funnel and those are the type of keywords that are actually triggering AI overviews. So that's why the value is really high there. So Google is not showing up when it comes to I don't know what is a mortgage for example. Well, it might, but like the value isn't there. AIO is being triggered when the high money terms are on the table. So, that's where the opportunity is. >> Makes sense. And since there's so much money inside this AI overviews for this terms, what's the risk for companies to not invest in AI visibility? >> So, the risk right now is there's a customer acquisition costs spiral, right? If you're not there, you have to buy that traffic back through ads. So, it becomes kind of like this penalty tax situation. If you're not there, you have to get that customer some other way and then you'll actually have to pay for that ad. So, instead of, you know, if you're actually showing up in a overview, then you don't have to pay for your ad spend, right? Makes sense. And uh what would you say is a good place to start for uh companies in the finance and banking industry? >> I would say the best place to start is a brand sentiment audit. really look at how your brand is perceived by LLMs across the web. Um, and take those insights and really bake them directly into your content strategy of like where are the gaps here to really make sure that you come across as the authority within your area uh to make sure that AI thinks you as the best choice and the most credible choice. >> And how would you go about doing um brand audit in the world of AI? Do you need to use special tools or what we're doing right now? We have a couple of partnerships with um a tool called profound as well as peak which are tools that can give you insights into what's happening in LLM. So how is your brand showing up for different prompts, different queries in different areas um and also where are you cited as a brand or maybe where are you not cited to be able to take all those insights um and feed that into your content strategy and I would also say you know look in other places where people are talking about you and forums etc. >> Yeah of course. Okay, moving on to B2B. Um, in B2B I thought was really interesting to see that 42% of the times brands were actually cited in AI answers, uh, which was the highest percentage across all verticals. Why do you think is that happening? Well, this is really interesting. So, B2B is really where AI overviews is doing a lot of hard work um, for potential customers. I'm sure you've seen it yourself like when you're comparing like software for example like what's the best thing to use for this. AI loves uh you know a little grid or a table with comparing different software with each other and gives you like pros and the cons and the features or whatever because B2B is really data heavy loads of features different things and AI loves to synthesize answers to give clients or potential customers that data to make a decision. And like I mentioned earlier with AI overviews now seamlessly integrating into you know going into full AI mode by just a little click you create these like question chains going further and further down the funnel close to decision. So when a user actually reach your site then they are very much more prone to convert and that's what we've seen across the board for our B2B clients. There was also research from 6 sense which is a software company and I think they said between 94 96% of B2B buyers are actually using AI to guide their choices right and that's that's crazy means almost everyone who is buying a tool um platform a SAS solution so on they're actually using AI and you need to be there obviously it seems pretty clear to me that you have to and what is the risk if you're not there if you're not in those 42% of the times where you brands are cited. >> Well, there's a massive risk of losing out and it's kind of like an invisible churn. It's like it's a potential lead sitting within their overviews that you didn't know you had until you've lost it, right? Cuz if you're not there educating the buyer with your, you know, features and all the details about why you're the best choice, if the LLMs, the AI don't know that about you, for example, or don't see you as a market leader, then you're you've lost that potential customer before you even knew you had it. So in in B2B basically if you're not there, you're not even in the two or three choices. So you're losing a customer before actually having the chance to to get it. >> Yeah. >> What's a good place to start for companies in B2B? Uh when it comes to optimizing for AI, >> uh a really good place to start, I would say just making sure that you're not gatekeeping any of your content. As we were speaking about AI synthesizes all the information about you as a brand compares you to competitors if you don't have all your features and data readily available for AI to train on then you might just risk losing out being part of that that overview. So no more gatekeeping. Okay. No more gated PDF put the pricing on the website and just say it all basically. Okay. Makes sense. Um and then the last vertical healthcare. within healthcare. I thought it was really interesting to see that we have a massive authority gap. So 67% of the times no brands are cited and I felt like that was quite risky because obviously specifically to this industry there's a lot of trust issues and of course you're talking about you know health choices could be you know products it could be choice of a health service of or so on. Why do you think is that why are in brand cited more often? Yeah, it's really interesting and this is actually an area where we've seen for the biggest decline in organic traffic for our our clients an